Okay, I've been slowly gathering info and doing searches on this for weeks now, and the more I read the more it seems like I need to just start replacing my entire front suspension until the problem goes away. Since I am a college student of somewhat limited means, that isn't the preferred method.
So, I'm going to give you as many details as I can think of, in the hopes that somebody with a real brain can pinpoint the problem. There might be a small $$ cash reward involved if somebody can really nail it and save me a lot of trouble. ;) Here goes:
FACT #1: Car is a 1997 M3 with 85k miles. Front suspension is all stock/original.
FACT #2: When I bought the car, the ride was glassy smooth and there was no steering wheel shake. My goal is to return the car to this condition.
FACT #3: Shortly after buying the car I bent my wheels slightly, causing a vibration issue at highway speeds that seemed to get worse over time. Had to drive on said bent wheels for several months due to lack of $$ (just bought car, replaced clutch and brakes... you get the picture).
FACT #4: Eventually replaced the wheels and tires... but the vibration, while better, hasn't completely gone away, and the steering wheel is now shaking as well. Now I suspect that driving on bent rims for so long may have blasted some other suspension component to hell... Not sure about that but it seems logical to me. Tires have all been balanced on BMW dealer's static balancer as well as another shop's Hunter GSP9700. So, wheels/tires are not the issue anymore.
FACT #5: The vibration/shaking itself is not noticable until about 50-60mph. At this point the front end of the car vibrates slightly, and the steering wheel shakes. The problem does not get any worse with more speed, but seems to be about the same at 60, 80, or 100+ mph. It is most noticable on smooth roads when traveling in a straight line. Turning and banking seems to mask the problem or at least doesn't make it any worse. Braking doesn't have any effect--the vibration/shaking stays the same. It could be my imagination, but the steering shake actually seems WORSE during/immediately after hard acceleration.
FACT #6: My alignment is getting thrown out of whack pretty quickly. I've had the car aligned three times in a year, and it always starts pulling to the right within a month or so.
In summary:
- wheels/tires/balancing not an issue
- shaking stays same at any speed over 60mph
- braking has no effect
- alignment getting thrown out of whack
Do these symptoms sound familiar to anybody? Tell me what you think the problem is, or narrow it down and tell me what you think it isn't. Just from looking under the car I can't find anything visually wrong that could cause this. Thanks! Two words. Ball joints.
I bought a car that was driven an unknown number of miles with unbalanced wheels. Even after rebalancing the wheels many times, and changing the front rotors, the car steering wheel shakes at certain speeds. It turns out both front ball joints were shot. After replacing them and the front lower control arms bushings and an alignment, the car drives like a dream.
Checking the ball joints is simple. With a wheel in the air, shake it back a forth with your hands at the 12 and 6 o'clock position. The wheel should move very little. Any significant movement is a problem.
Try also moving the wheel with your hands at the 9 and 3 o'clock position. I'm not sure but if your wheel moves, then the tie rod might be gone too.
Any competent alignment shop can do a full suspension inspection for no more than $80.
Good luck. definitely ball joints. i had the exact same symptoms. you have to buy a whole control arm though, as you can't replace the ball joints individually. M3 control arms arm usually 180 each.
good luck. very common on these cars btw. funny my steering wheels shakes like that also but at low speeds not high I concur, ball joints. Your tie rods may also be malfunctioning if your alignment keeps getting off. Excellent... Ball joints it is then. I'll order up some new control arms/bushings/ball joints and hope for the best.
I figured that whatever was causing the vibration was also screwing up my alignment, but I suppose I can replace the tie rods as well since they aren't all that difficult or expensive.
Gentlemen, feel free to PM me your Paypal or mailing addresses. If it turns out you were right, I'll happily send you a modest reward for your time. Thanks! :redspot
If anybody has any more input... let's hear it! Are you going to tackle the job yourself? There is a great DIY out there if you are. I think the only major thing you need is a sawsle. Oh, and BTW any reputable shop should be able to swap out just the ball joints for you. I had mine done by an independent place, they only charged me 1 extra hours labor because they had to make a tool. Total cost ~$250. Have to do a little more research, but I may try it myself. I think I have access to all the necessary tools. We'll see. :D
On the M3 I am under the impression that the whole control arm must be replaced. That's what the Bentley manual says anyway. I think on the normal E36 3-series you can just knock the ball joint out without even removing the control arm, but the M3 is more of a pain. I have also noticed online that there are places that sell aftermarket control arms. They may only cost a tad more, and offer greater longevity and performance. Its worth taking a look at anyway. It is reasonable to expect that E36 is different from M3 suspension in general. the ball joint that typically goes bad is the inner one that is connected to the engine cradle. so, jack up one side, grab the wheel and push and pull it. if you see any significant movement( more than a fem millemeters) it's time to go . and, separating ball joints is not fun, so give yourself ample time if you plan to do it yourself. i know turnermotorsport sells the control arms for about 180 or something. and they also have aluminum control arms that are lighter for 199. i also went with the offset control arm bushings from the 95 m3 for more castor. pm me if you have any questions. On the M3 I am under the impression that the whole control arm must be replaced. That's what the Bentley manual says anyway. I think on the normal E36 3-series you can just knock the ball joint out without even removing the control arm, but the M3 is more of a pain.
Your correct, the M3 balljoint isn't replaceable. UPDATE: Well, I've found three writeups and tons of tips and tricks on how to do the control arm/bushing replacement as a DIY, and the tie rods seem easy enough. I think I'm going to go for it.
I'm ordering everything from Eap4parts.com--Control arms and tie rods say OE BMW or Lemforder and their prices are actually quite a bit LOWER than Bimmerparts.com, so that looks like a pretty good deal. $149 a piece for the control arms, $42 for the bushing kit and $53 each for the tie rods. Not bad.
I have finals this coming week, so most likely I'll collect my parts and tools and attempt the install next weekend after exams are over with. I'll update again then. Wish me luck! :redspot Hi,
I got same problem with my 316 car. I changed everything starting from stabiliser, tire rod, Control arm & boosing but it did not solve my problem. Last I changed my front brake disc and front brake pads and there I got a smooth car driving at any speed I want.
You better change your disc and pads. Try it.
miles316@icqmail.com I changed my front rotors and pads last year. Also, all the problems happen when I am accelerating or cruising, not braking. I've also checked my calipers and they are not grabbing or seizing up.
I'm not saying you're wrong, BUT if the rotors/pads are indeed the problem, how do you explain the fact that moderate-to-hard braking doesn't make things any worse? I just don't see how that's possible. My steering wheel shakes only when i brake, anyone know the cause of this. I got either my front or my reer brake pads replaced last summer, dont quite remember which ones though, so i dont know if the brake pad is the issue. I believe shaking during braking is usually caused by buildup of deposits on your brake rotors. Replace your front pads and rotors and make sure they get bedded in properly. Excellent... Ball joints it is then. I'll order up some new control arms/bushings/ball joints and hope for the best.
I figured that whatever was causing the vibration was also screwing up my alignment, but I suppose I can replace the tie rods as well since they aren't all that difficult or expensive.
Gentlemen, feel free to PM me your Paypal or mailing addresses. If it turns out you were right, I'll happily send you a modest reward for your time. Thanks! :redspot
If anybody has any more input... let's hear it!
let me know if that works...I have a similar vibration issue that balancing on Hunter GSP9000 did not fully resolve. Also, something sounds a little loose in my front suspension. It's getting annoying and my mechanic keeps dismissing it as a tire or balance issue. Well, I finally got all my parts and tools together and did the deed this week. Brand spankin' new control arms, control arm bushings, and tie rods were installed by yours truly. Got my alignment done this afternoon, so the M3 is back in business.
Initial impressions: The car definitely rides MUCH better--much smoother. Everything feels nice and tight again. I'm not sure if the vibration has been totally eliminated however... Although DRAMATICALLY reduced, it feels like it's still lurking. Not sure what that means.
Anyway, time and more extensive testing will tell. I haven't run it over 85mph yet... I'm slowly learning to trust the integrity of my own repair work. I was really careful to do everything right, but it still feels weird to be driving on suspension and steering components that I put together myself. It's a whole new experience. Prior to this, the most extensive repair/maintenance work I had done involved changing fluids and brake pads, so this was a pretty big step for me. :)
So, for the moment I'm not entirely sure if the problem is fixed, but the repairs were definitely worth it. The car drives and responds 100% better.
Will update again when I've put some more miles on. :cool: I pretty much have the same problem on my 325i. After a while my car does not seem to be driving the way it used to (sdteering I mean). So I decided to take the easy way first and replaced the front stuts and springs, tie rod assembly and new controls arms with new control arm bushings. Anyway the problem still exists and I honestly think that the power steering rack is the culprit (especially at around 152k miles).
Keep us informed of what happens. I definitely still have the steering wheel shimmy. I think the new ball joints and tie rods are helping to mask the problem, but unfortunately it hasn't been solved. I hope that doesn't mean I need a new rack... at 85k miles that would really suck. :mad:
I have done so much searching on this topic, and the biggest problem I am finding is that nobody ever follows up to explain what finally fixed their problem. There are a ton of posts that begin, "My steering wheel is shaking..." and they all just trail off without solutions. Really frustrating.
So, I'm still trying to figure this out... There is no noise involved, so I don't think it's my front wheel bearings. The thing that really has me stumped is that the shimmy is worst during hard acceleration. That just doesn't make any sense to me.
Going to work on this for a bit longer, but I think I may end up letting the dealer figure it out. Okay, made a little bit of headway today. :)
I got to thinking about this last night and I just couldn't understand why the steering wheel gets the shakes during acceleration. That seems more like a tire problem, not a suspension problem... But all my tires were balanced on a Hunter GSP9700 pretty recently.
Then I realized that I've been driving around for a while with bad ball joints, possibly bad tie rods, and some pretty old/stiff CABs, and I got to wondering if it's possible for the front tires to be individually balanced but have radically different treadwear characteristics. That seems like something that could cause a shimmy under hard acceleration, and it's something the tire shop guys could easily have missed. So, on a hunch, I rotated my tires, taking the brand-new Bridgestone RE750s from the rear and putting them on the front.
It helped a lot! The shimmy isn't completely gone, but at least this is helping me narrow down the problem. Even after all the rebalancing, etc, something is still screwy with my wheel/tire situation... Thanks for providing updates on your situation, patrokloss! I'm a new (2 months) owner of a 95 325is, and I've been battling with the same vibration issue you've been dealing with. went the same route: replaced control arms/ball joints, bushings, and tie rods. I had been suspecting that a tire rotation might point to the tires as the culprit, and you've confirmed it. Thanks again! New tires helped a lot, but I still had a slight shimmy at higher speeds. I learned that it is actually possible for a wheel to be slightly bent (causing vibration) but still balance perfectly, which I did not know before. So I took the car down to the dealer and had them pull the front tires off and check the rims. The driver-side wheel had a slight bend--right where I would feel it the most. Mounted a spare wheel I had on hand, rebalanced the tires...
...Still have the shimmy, still mostly under hard acceleration. Every step is helping bit by bit but the problem isn't going away. This is driving me nuts. :mad: so whats happening? let us know. i'm having the same problem. My current hunch is just that my wheels are all slightly out of round. I've been swapping them front to back and there is a noticeable difference. The dealer says they're straight but I think they're just being lazy and not taking the tires off. Since they haven't been able to identify the problem, my gut feeling about the wheels is all I have to go on.
I'm going to pick up a set of either the M68 330i performance wheels or the polished LTWs in the next couple of weeks, depending on what's available. We'll see if that helps at all. I'll update again if/when I've made further progress with this. I had my M into the dealer twice for "steering vibration" and all they did was rebalance the wheels...first the fronts, then the rears. I was full expecting a laundry list of suggested repairs, but nothing. The vibration was reduced after the rebalance but is still there. I'm beginning to think I just have a tire or two that is out of round. They are Sumi's, and I've heard about vibration issues with these tires. For the moment is at least bareable...around 80 MPH it's smooth enough where I don't really notice. I have the same problem. Started about 6 months ago and slowly got worse and worse.. Now from all that shimmy I think it knocked it out of alignment..
Just from looking at the wheels, I could clearly see I have excessive toe-out causing the car to go all over the road at highway speeds.. Now I see the inside of my front tires are getting shaved up from that.. I tightened both tierods in about a 1/2 of a turn to reduce the toeout.. The car doesnt go all over the road as bad now but the shimmy is still there..
Im mostly worried about a tierod coming loose or something, my car has excessive toeout.. Still not having much luck with this. I did replace the wheels (again!), this time with some forged LTW's, and that helped quite a bit. The shaking is maybe 50% reduced and my alignment has been good for several months. So at least part of the problem has been resolved--my old wheels were definitely a big factor (in spite of the dumb dealer and their overpriced opinions).
I still had a slight shake so I broke down and tried the brake replacement suggestion: installed brand new OE pads and rotors on all four corners. Made absolutely no difference at all.
Something definitely is still wrong--the steering wheel still gets the jitters every time I drive, especially at 75+ mph. I can feel it throughout the entire car, but especially through the steering wheel.
I'm really pulling my hair out over this. :mad I'm on winter break now so I have lots of extra time... I'm determined to figure this out before I go back to school. If anybody has any bright ideas PLEASE share... :help I know that you've done quite a bit on this, and at this point there's only so many parts let to replace. The ball joints would have been my first guess. Another front end componenet that also has ball joints and that may be contributing to this is your sway bar end links. How old are those? You may also want to take a look at your sway bar bushings to see what kind of shape they're in. I say that since your saying that the symptoms you're having are present when turning and sway bars will factor in in turning. This is the list I plan on doing and will report back with my impression:
new control arms, control arm bushings
new front sway bar end links
new tie rods
GC coilovers
new rear trailing arm bushings w/ shims
GC rsms
If this doesn't fix it, I planned on getting new wheels anyways and that will be my next move as well...keep us informed and I'll do the same. I plan to continue adding new suspension components and leave the steering rack last. Hmm... Well, with regard to my sway bar endlinks, I know one of them is probably original (93k now). I have a record of the other one being replaced at around 55k. So I'm sure they probably need to be freshened up... Would that really cause a problem like this though? Shaking while driving in a straight line? I was under the impression that the sway bar is more of a factor during turning. Is that wrong?
BMWManiac, keep us posted! Even if it doesn't altogether fix the problem your car will definitely drive 100% better when you are done. The shimmy I'm left with now is only a fraction of what I had when I started this thread... I just want the car back to its old self is all.
Thanks guys. Are you sure about the wheel bearings? I had a VW GTI once that had bent wheels that I could not diagnose for a while, and it took out my wheel bearings and tranny(FWD) bearings, as well as ate up the tires.
MikeG Are you aligning the car with the proper weights in place? My car would not properly align unless the factory required weights were in position. The result was shaking like you have described. Not at all sure about the wheel bearings. They are all original. The only reason I haven't replaced them is because past experience tells me that wheel bearings tend to make a lot of noise when they are going bad, and mine are silent. Guess it might be worth a try though. I just hate to keep throwing $$ at this problem without any assurances that it will actually do me any good...
Are you aligning the car with the proper weights in place? My car would not properly align unless the factory required weights were in position. The result was shaking like you have described.Really? How does a bad alignment cause shaking? I have no idea if my alignment guy is using the weights or not. The tech at my local dealership claims he is the only one in the area that can align my car properly, but he charges over $170. You can imagine how often I've springed for that... I've done some more testing, and my symptoms have changed quite a bit since my initial post. This is interesting...
The remaining shimmy actually gets worse at higher speed. It appears at around 60-70mph, and by 100 it's really bad. So I think it's a moving/rotating part. What's really weird is that after a high-speed run, I have bad shaking during braking---but ONLY after a high-speed run. The rest of the time the brakes are perfectly smooth. All my pads and rotors are fresh and in good condition. Alignment also has been fine ever since I swapped the wheels out.
I jacked the front of the car up the other day and spun the front wheels. The driver side spins freely, but the passenger side makes a rythmic "Shhhhh...shhhhh...shhhhh..." and grinds to a halt pretty quickly.
So, I'm convinced it's the front wheel bearing(s). On the one hand they aren't making any noise, and when I pull on the wheel/tire there is no movement at either the 9/3 or the 6/12 o'clock positions. So I don't have any of the classic symptoms of bad wheel bearings. But on the other hand, this shaking is coming from somewhere, and I don't know what else it could be. I've already replaced just about everything else.
I've ordered two front wheel hub assemblies and will be installing them sometime next week. Will update again soon. Maybe I missed it but I see where you said you changed "wheels", by this you mean the wheel or the wheel/tire assembly.
Your last symptom, the increased shimmy after a high speed run I think tells the story. If you have not changed out the tires, (and I don`t see specifically where you have indicated so), I would believe you have a bad tire or tires. Probably nothing you can see by eye and probably nothing that could be measured externally on the tire.
Keep in mind that the tire machines, the dynamic, or "spin" balance type bring the tire up to a final fixed rpm value and set the correction weight at that rpm. From years of experience in high speed balancing of electric motors for nuclear power plants I know that a change in rpm changes the values for both the amount of correction weight and the location of the correction weight. It would be in a practical sense, impossible to perfectly balance a tire for all speed ranges. Especially with the beating a tire takes. An electric motor runs in fairly controlled conditions with a fairly constant loading but a tire changes temperatures, is made of soft material, goes through bad pavement, takes cornering loads, etc.
After all the suspension work you have done with the numerous alignments you have mentioned I would find a friend or someone that could lend you a full set of decent wheel/tires and give them a run.
As I said in the beginning, your symptom of the shimmy change makes me think that the tire being under changing stress is reacting by changing its balance probably because the speed rating is not up to the demand or the tires have an internal cord structure that has been damaged or affected over time. This would account for the shift in balance plus it goes without saying that the MASS of the tire at its outer diameter has the necessary force to cause the problem you describe, nothing else generates this amout of force.
What tires do you have, read the fine print on the sidewall and find out how many tread cords you have and how many sidewall cords you have.
If they are Pirellis, toss them in the nearest dumpster.
Pirelli fans, please don`t bother to respond. Tried all kinds of Pirellis over the years, happy when were gone, don`t even consider them anymore.
The Pirellis would flat spot, absorb moisture at the low point after sitting overnight, (try to diagnose that one !), cord shift, cheap sidewall and tread cord structure, and on, and on......
Been running Yokohamas at high speeds over and over again on a fleet of 9 beemers, love them.
Hope this helps, andrew Thanks for the comments. :) I've gone through a couple of different tires since I started this thread, but I'm currently running Bridgestone RE750's in the front and Michelin Pilot Sports in the rear. Both sets of tires have good tread. I've swapped them front-to-back several times and it doesn't seem to make any difference at all in terms of the wheel shimmy I'm experiencing. So, for the moment I think I can safely rule out tires as a possibility.
Your last symptom, the increased shimmy after a high speed run I think tells the story.I should probably clarify: It's not that there is increased wheel shimmy after a high speed run. Rather I get increased shimmy with more speed, and when I return to normal speeds it gradually dissapates. But afterwards I do have temporary brake judder, which goes away completely by the next time I start the car up. It's a weird problem and I can't remember ever hearing of anyone else with the same symptoms, so I'm really taking a wild guess here, but I think it might be the wheel bearings. We'll know soon... I have a 93 525, and used to have the same vibration problem. Replaced arm bushing, new tires (same set, and speed), and new wheels. Solved my problem. Only prblem left, wondering if you have it, is driving slowly over speed bumps and the steering wheel "plays" or feel loose a little bit. This is caused by a steering wheel component.
Any how, from conversations with an experienced BMW mechanic, regarding shimmy problem, the only factor that you left out are the bolt joint. Steering wheel shaking while braking, could be bolt joint or less likely, the shaft.
Best of luck! Actually, he did replace the ball joints. The ball joints on the E36 are part of the control arms and replaced both of those along with their respective bushings. Ok, understand better now when the shimmy comes and goes.
From your description of the resistance on the brake rotors when you spin the tire, how it stops pretty quickly, keep in mind that the BMW, (and most cars), requires that the rotors be within .003 inch so as not to produce and braking judder. A sheet of white office paper is approximately .006 inch or twice the tolerance required for the BMW rotor to acheive smooth braking.
It sounds as if you have good tires but with the combination now of going through the bad ball joints and the possibly worn/distorted rotors you may have caused a slight cupping or out of round condition or even an internal cord shift within the tire, only the cupping would be visible to an experienced eye and then even if it was visible.
I only go back to the tires because this is the only component in this system that has the rotational mass to cause these symptoms.
As a bit of a side story, Lamborghini for years used a machine that looked like the blades of an old reel type lawnmower, not exactly the same but you get the idea. They would set the car with all four tires on these rollers and "shave" the tires lightly until the tires were perfect with each other. Since they were already installed on the car this shaving of the rubber took into account any deviations in the rims, bearings, alignment, etc. so that the car was perfectly smooth at 150+ miles an hour. So, I always remember this story when I think about how far you can go to get all of this stuff to work together correctly.
Any chance at all that you could swap out all four wheels and tires with someone else for a quick 15 minute test ride? I`m lucky enough to have a set of winter wheels with Blizzaks and if I have any doubt about my tires I swap out the winter wheels and the change is immediately indicated.
Possibly you could buy a second set of wheels/tires off ebay or even out of the BMW Car Club of America magazine in the classified section. There are always second sets of wheels for sale at very reasonable prices. Might consider joining the group in your area and you will receive the monthly magazine so that you can find parts and tires, help, in your local area.
Just re-read your post and came to focus on the statement, "shimmies under hard acceleration", had this come in on a customers car a couple months ago. It was the rubber drive shaft flex disc and the driveshaft carrier bearing.
The car would be fine if you drove gently but if you accelerated hard or got going fast on the highway, the vibration built up in the driveshaft, felt just like a steering shimmy. (Cracked/dried out "Guibo" disc does this all the time, just presumed you checked this although most models you can`t see the carrier bearing above the exhaust sheild).
andrew Wow, lots of info... Thanks for all the ideas. :cool
From your description of the resistance on the brake rotors when you spin the tire, how it stops pretty quickly, keep in mind that the BMW, (and most cars), requires that the rotors be within .003 inch so as not to produce and braking judder. A sheet of white office paper is approximately .006 inch or twice the tolerance required for the BMW rotor to acheive smooth braking.My pads and rotors are only a few weeks old and are broken in perfectly, so I don't know of any imperfections in the rotors that would be causing problems at this point. Is that likely?
It sounds as if you have good tires but with the combination now of going through the bad ball joints and the possibly worn/distorted rotors you may have caused a slight cupping or out of round condition or even an internal cord shift within the tire, only the cupping would be visible to an experienced eye and then even if it was visible. Just to clarify, I never had anything but new ball joints and brakes with these tires. However, they HAVE suffered some abuse from my 95k original shocks and struts, which if anything is probably even worse. The shocks aren't leaking or anything like that, but they aren't doing much good either. I can well imagine the tires could be cupping or having some other problem as a result. However, I should add that the struts were pretty dead already when I bought the car, and at that time there was no shimmy at all, at any speed. (Well, any speed under about 130. Beyond that I wouldn't know.) :D
I only go back to the tires because this is the only component in this system that has the rotational mass to cause these symptoms.I'm not 100% sure what that statement was intended to mean. The only areas where rotational mass has any meaning is the wheel/tire, rotor, and possibly the hub. Are you saying there's no way the wheel bearings could be causing this? They're due for replacement anyway so I don't mind changing them out one way or the other, but I have heard many knowledgeable people say that shot wheel bearings can induce vibration.
Keep in mind that this is a really minor vibration. Compared with what I had when I started this thread, it's negligable. I think the only reason I even know anything is wrong is because I remember how the car is supposed to drive. (I've let other, non-BMW people drive it, and they think I'm just being obsessive-compulsive. Which, let's face it, I am.) :devillook
Any chance at all that you could swap out all four wheels and tires with someone else for a quick 15 minute test ride?Actually yeah, my brother has stock M3 wheels on his E36 328. Tell you what, we are replacing our front wheel bearings together next week, so if the new wheel bearings don't chase the symptoms away I will swap wheels with him for a bit and see what happens!
Just re-read your post and came to focus on the statement, "shimmies under hard acceleration", had this come in on a customers car a couple months ago. It was the rubber drive shaft flex disc and the driveshaft carrier bearing.My flex disc is almost brand-new; changed it a few months ago. The center bearing is on my "to-do" list. I've been getting a lot of vibration in the shift knob at certain speeds and I'm not sure where it's coming from. But that's another thread for another day! I have a 93 525, and used to have the same vibration problem. Replaced arm bushing, new tires (same set, and speed), and new wheels. Solved my problem. Only prblem left, wondering if you have it, is driving slowly over speed bumps and the steering wheel "plays" or feel loose a little bit. This is caused by a steering wheel component.
Any how, from conversations with an experienced BMW mechanic, regarding shimmy problem, the only factor that you left out are the bolt joint. Steering wheel shaking while braking, could be bolt joint or less likely, the shaft.
Best of luck!
I have a 2000 316i, bought it second hand. The car drives nice and all, no shimming, no vibration...nada.
but when I'm driving slow, perhaps 30mph to 40mph, and I drive up on an irregular road surface, perhaps a slight gradual bump or dent in the road, My steering wheel gets pulled to that side quick. I just had the car for about 1 month now, and I held $2.5K from the owner, just in case I need to get things fixed. Now I have this problem, that I don't even know where to start.
The tires are balanced and are aligned as well. The car drives smooth, straight and everything is working well. But driving slow on a road surface with slight uneven surfaces, makes the steering pull to one direction or the other.
I never had a beamer before, so I don't know how the car is suppose to handle driving in a curve. It seems to me, after hitting a curve, that when correcting the steering to the straight road, this doesn't seem to happen smoothly with my BMW, while with other cars, if you release the steering wheel right before you hit the straight road, the steering will automatically straighten to the straight road. In my case, it seems my car likes to maintain the curve, which is cool and all, and perhaps this would go in another thread entirely.
I am very concerned about my BMW steering issue, since I bought this car for my wife and this problem is killing me.
Any help is greatly appreciated. I'm even willing to donate to the one that knows the solution as well.
Thanks again. What you're describing sounds like "tramlining" or the tendency for the car to follow slong any grooves or wear spots in the road. This happens a lot on cars with lowered, sport suspenisions. Has this car been lowered by chance? yes I think it has, This is the picture of the car I bought for my wife:
http://www.visualasylum.net/incoming/G-bmw.jpg
So yes, I'm pretty sure it has been lowered, cause the other day, I was in traffic next to another 3 series and mine seemed lower.
Is there any solution to this? It's hard to tell from those pictures, and it also lloks like you have 18" wheels which would have very short sidewalls and might also increase this tendancy.
One of the problems when a car it lowered is the effects this has on the camber and castor of the suspension. On BMWs, camber and castor are not adjustable unless you get adjustable plates that allow you to do so. Adjusting the angles of the suspension is one way to correct for tramlining problems. I'm not an expert on this, so there may also be other remedies as well. I think that a lot of people who have lowered their cars with sport suspensions just live with the tramlining and enjoy the positive handling apsects of having a real sports car. Thanks Going to post this Tramlining in the main page, perhaps I could get more tips as well. Thanks so much.
Regards May be this question not what you think but I have to ask. Do your steering wheel heavier than normal or seem to? If yes, two bearings at top and bottom of steering column. I have this problem before and I replaced all front steering and suspension but no luck until I replaced two bearings. Hope this help. Bearing number 2 and 7 on the picture
May be this question not what you think but I have to ask. Do your steering wheel heavier than normal or seem to? If yes, two bearings at top and bottom of steering column. I have this problem before and I replaced all front steering and suspension but no luck until I replaced two bearings. Hope this help. Bearing number 2 and 7 on the pictureI'll second that. I've never actually replaced them, but just lubing them up helped my steering feel and return-to-center immensely. Definitely a maintenance item. This is definitely a strange and troublesome problem. I have a feeling that the bearing may have its clearance reduced when had the original damage. But if that was the case, more heat would have been generated in it and eventually it would have spalled and caused a lot of noise. Plus, you say when turning there is no vibration or noise? Very strange.
Or, maybe the shield of the bearing was somehow moved or shifted due to the constant vibration or original damage, and is interferring with the working surfaces of the bearing.
I am interested to know what happens. Good luck. SHIT!!
It seems the wheel shimmy at 70mph is coming back.
I replaced control arms, sway bar bushings and links, control arm bushings, shocks, springs, upper strut mounts, Pirelli Nero tires, an alignment, etc...
Replaced just about everything except the tierods, wheel bearings, brakes, and the steering rack..
All that stuff fixed the shimmy about 90%, just a tiny bit left. Now it is almost back where it was..
OMG!! what is going on? I've been chasing vibes in my E30 for a couple years. So far I have replaced my front springs and struts, tie rod ends, and control arm bushings. Each change has improved the ride immensely. I'm going after the ball joints next, but....
As I was doing my TREs, I noticed that there was just the slightest bit of play in the rack and pinion. Don't overlook worn worm gears. A worn R&P can cause vibes, too. *SIGH*
So I replaced the front wheel hubs / bearings. The upside is, it was one of the easiest jobs I have ever done. It couldn't possibly have gone any more smoothly.
The downside is, of course, that it didn't fix my problem.
It did help a bit... The car is definitely smoother and the wheel feels a bit more steady. But something else is *still* wrong. The remaining vibration is fairly intermittant... Sometimes I can't really tell it's there and sometimes it's really bad. I can feel it through the floor as well as in the steering wheel. Still worst under moderate-to-hard acceleration, and the car feels really unstable at high speeds. I'm going to start looking at driveline components and maybe try swapping out my front tires again. After that it's going to have to be the steering rack I guess.
There's no mistaking the moral of this story: If you have a bent wheel, don't drive another mile until you've replaced it--period. I can't believe how much trouble this has caused me... I have a similar problem and have an appt for monday to have it looked at. Seems no one has changed the steering rack, makes me wonder if that could be it..... I was reading this thread yesterday, because some of the symtoms sounded similar to those that plagued my late, lamented 1995 318iS. Since I bought it used the car had a slight sensation (cannot quite call it a vibration) that became more noticeable at speed (60+ mph) on smooth pavement. Soon after installing new pads and rotors, the car also developed an occasional, noisy, small amplitude vibration under braking. I thought this was the original problem getting worse, and after checking the usual suspects, tire balancing, alignment,
I thought wheel bearings, which I changed. No success. To make things worse,
the car developed a pretty noticeable shimmy under braking, and this with rotors with fewer than 10k on them!. I was getting really frustrated, but at last I found a loose outer left A arm ball joint. Replacing both ball joints (they are replaceable in non M E36s), and putting new rotors and pads (apparently the previous ones soon warped because of the
bad ball joint) corrected the noise and vibration under braking, but I never did figure out the original problem, before the car was totaled by somebody cutting my wife off last November. Your problems and attempted fixings sounded similar enough to my suituation to keep me reading the thread with interest yesterday. One thing puzzled me; you say the problem gets worse under acceleration. This reminded me of a puzzle I had years ago with my 1979
VW Rabbit. There was a quite severe vibration and some steering wheel shimmy under both acceleration and braking. I soon discovered a shot engine mount bushing. So, have you checked your engine and transmission mounts?
Hope this helps Thanks for the comments. There are lots of things to check and unfortunately I just haven't had time to work on the car lately.
My engine mounts look okay to me (not that I'm an expert or anything) and my tranny mounts are of the brand new UUC variety, so I don't think either of those is the culprit. However, I think you are correct in that there is something screwy going on with the driveline. I have a ton of vibration in the shifter now whenever the car is under any kind of load... Guibo has been replaced so I'm thinking maybe my center carrier bearing is shot or something. I really don't know. But spring break is coming up so hopefully I will have a chance to pull the driveshaft and take a look very soon. In the meantime I haven't forgotten this thread... I will update if/when I find a solution. ;) I have you answer!
I have the same vibration in a 92 lude i just bought, common sense told me to look at the tie rod assembly inner left/right since it only did it while going straight and not while turning. Like your problem. Sure enough, replacing both fixed the problem of the wheel shake.
I'm almost 100% sure that's what is the matter with your car, thus would explain it not being stable at high speeds (either the left or right wheel wobbles back and forth). The thing is with the lude's rack is servicable and the inner assemblies only cost something like $22 dollars each side. Now the bmw rack isn't servicable as far as I know? And a new one will run you around $480 dollars :eyecrazy
I would venture to say, that after replacing all the things you did might have helped a little, most are going to get ruined in time due to the rack being loose and causing one or both wheels to shimmy back and forth. Thus requiring you to replace them again and again until you fix the rack.
I would look into this before you go spending more money, but my bet is it resides in the rack
Right now, my bimmer is shaking after I swapped motors out and has since died down, It's either the motor mounts or the cb on the driveshaft. I get to put it on the lift after school this summer since I didn't have time spring break. I also need to replace brake pads and get some rotors to calm the shaking while braking :)
Good luck!
km
Forgot to mention that you get $185 back if you send in your old rack, so that brings the price down to $295.45 :) Oh, and are your shocks bad? And one more thing, don't laugh, how's your tire pressure? Only thing is I have vibration both in a straight line and in the corners... steering wheel, shifter, brake pedal, pretty much everywhere. My suspicion is I that I have multiple problems here; so far I just haven't had the time or money to attack everything at one time and figure it out. Instead I am doing it piecemeal over the course of several months.
I did replace the tie rods and it didn't really make any difference; the rack is one of the few things I haven't swapped out yet, so that will probably be coming up soon. The rack would have been my first parts to change, of course, after bushings and ball joints. but that's just me, good luck trying to figure out what the matter.
km I'm going to do my entire suspension swap tomorrow. Did you reuse the locking nuts on the control arms, or did you get new ones? I can't find any here from the local parts stores or anywhere else! I may have to just reuse them and use locktite or something. I bought new lock nuts. Get them from your local dealer, or order them from Pacific BMW.
- self locking hex nuts for inner ball joint (two) Part # 31 12 1 095 420
- self locking hex nuts for outer ball joint (two) Part # 32 21 1 095 267 I know I should have researched it sooner! I have the outer lock nuts, but not the inner....how bad is it to reuse old ones? I really want to get this done tomorrow. Can I just add some locktite to it? The dealership doesn't have any, so I would have to order it. Sorry, I have absolutely no idea if it's okay to just use a thread locker. The only reason I know how to do ANYTHING is because of what I've read on here and in the repair manual. I'm not an experienced shop mechanic.
I'd just call the dealer and maybe another local independent and see what they think. Even if someone on these boards tells you it's okay to reuse the nuts, I wouldn't do it. There is so much dangerously bad advice being thrown around these boards all the time it's not even funny...
Good luck! I'm having this prob and have replaced everything, including tires. My rims are fine, etc. etc. The only thing I have left to do is Struts, tie rods and the steering rack. Well, I'm taking my car into a specialty shop tomorrow. They are going to change out the tie rods, control arms, bushing, rtabs, rsms, install coilovers, corner balance my new wheels....hopefully, this will take care of the problem. Hopefully I'm not going to have to deal with all of the stuff you have. I purchased this car from my father about 6 months ago. I hit a brand spanking new pothole on the 10 when our wonderful Los Angles roads were falling apart around January with all of the rain. I immediately noticed a handling problem but was in denial for a long time, not wanting to fork out the cash to get it fixed/checked out. It didn't really change for a long time, but then about 3 months later I hit a big dip on Sepulveda in the right lane and my right wheel banged pretty hard (I didn't hit the curb, just a dip from a storm drain I think and there was a thud of something hitting something). The car is all stock and does have the sports suspension. After the dip-in-the-road incident the infamous vibration started creeping up:
At first it was very subtle, and I once again thought I was being too paranoid
I drove it on a 800 mile trip up California and it didn't seem to get any worse.
Then recently it was well defined from 55-60 mile/hr but over 60 it died down.
The vibration is most pronounced when I first accelerate the car after not driving it for a few hours through a particular range of speed but this range seems to expand as time goes on. The handling is still funny, hard to describe but like someone else said, it doesnt want to straighten out after I turn the wheel to change lanes and I have to almost counter steer slightly to straighten back after a lane change. It's a subtle sensation that I may have gotten used to by now, but it almost feels like I'm driving on an oily surface or on ice. Not as extreem as in the literal sense, but there's a hint of such a feeling.
I had an alignment done yesterday and things where out of whack but I haven't driven it since and after reading this thread I'm beginning to worry that this is only the tip of the iceberg. I have same shimmy at 40-60 then again at 75-90. One wheel was bent when I purchased the car and the dealer had it "straightened". Independent alignment shop claims both front wheels still bent a bit. Taking it in next week to see if the dealer will take care of the problem and hopefully replace the wheels.
My shimmy is mostly at speed, and a little under braking.
New rack 15K ago, bearings, tie rod ends and ball joints all feel tight.
Car has 34K on it, tires only have a few K on them. my dad warned me to just leave it because he said u can change everything and it wont go away, and i have a feeling he knows from experience on his 740...
i just bought a 740i and it has a slight shimmy at 55-60 mph only... and i have a feeling that when i change the rods and joints and bearings and everything it still wont go away
i'll see in a week... thx for keeping us up with ur post its very helpful and makes me think that next time i should buy new, because once a front end goes its all over :devillook bump
Any new information from anyone!?!? I replaced front control arms on my car. Helped somewhat. But, the real issue is the tires' irregular wear pattern......which is a result of the slop in the ball joints prior to replacement.
So... If you've run on old suspension bits for awhile, your tires may already be "tainted". After you put new bits on, don't necessarily expect the problem to be gone until you get new tires.
Tommy I'm aware of this. When I bought my car the tires were worn very unevenly and had a bad shimmy. I thought that a new set of tires and shocks, plus control arms and bushings to-boot, would make my problems go away. Little did I know that it was only the begining...
Thanks for the responce tho... I'm just a slightly disgruntled e36 m3 owner. :eyecrazy I have same shimmy at 40-60 then again at 75-90. One wheel was bent when I purchased the car and the dealer had it "straightened". Independent alignment shop claims both front wheels still bent a bit. Taking it in next week to see if the dealer will take care of the problem and hopefully replace the wheels.
My shimmy is mostly at speed, and a little under braking.
New rack 15K ago, bearings, tie rod ends and ball joints all feel tight.
Car has 34K on it, tires only have a few K on them.
Update:
Brought back to the dealer to squawk about the bent wheel(s), hoping for replacement. They wanted one more shot at balancing.
This was the 3rd balance in a month so I didn't give it much hope. One by the dealer and one by the independent shop.
Got the car back and amazing to find that front end is rock solid up to about 90+mph. Only difference may be that this time they balanced all four wheels. I suppose the shimmy could have been caused by one of the rears but didn't seem to be coming from the rear. Might never know for sure. Bottom line is, now it's good. so fixing the shimmy problem is like winning the lottery... i am going to take my car in next week and it seems like a can of worms.
i have a shimmy at 55mph only going straight and its on brakes or acceleration
i am running on the inside of both front tires so i'm going to replace the bushings... other front end parts look ok as far as my mechanic says, and i'm going to get new front tires and a 4 wheel alignment, lets see if the problem goes away :rolleyes I have a shimmy from 45-50. My mech says I need new rear bushings before a 4-wheel alignment will "stick". Re-balanced wheels and tires on a high-end balancer, but shimmy is still there. Balancing did reveal some sidewall defects in two tires, but "not enough to warrant replacement for now". Right front tire is cupped a little. Hoping that a new alignment will allow even tire wear and eliminate problem eventually.
The shimmy seems worst in the morning when the tires are cold. Does this make sense?
Should I just buy a new set of tires and use these as spares? It's a mixed set - Toyo Proxes 4s on the front, Michelin Pilot Sports on rear.
TIA for any advice ... will post final solution when shimmy goes away! anyone have any updates?
has anything worked... seems like shimmy's are for life, just need to deal with them No update from me, and mine is getting worse by the day. I'm down to replacing either the rack or the driveshaft, possibly both. They both look okay though, and I hate to drop $600+ for a new driveshaft without knowing if it will do any good... Anybody have a good writeup on how to inspect u-joints? patrokloss
you mentioned earlier you replaced the tranny mounts with uuc. did you get the aluminum vups as well? if so take them out that will help with the car vibration. also read the manual about torques on the mnounting bolts for the tranny bushings if you go over the 7-9 ft*lbs, you will get a vibration. i know it happened to me as well i removed the cups and set the torques correctly it helped. also when you reinstall use tock-tite to keep the nuts from, falling off at that low of torque.
your steering rack has some adjustment to it where you can tighten up the steering feel. what i mean is it will feel tighter to turn left to right. there is a 17 mm nut to the right of where the steering shaft comes throught he rack (looking at it from the front) that can be tightened to stiffen up the suspension. from what i can see after having mine apart this weekend it looks like a spring loaded needle valve that controls flow by pressing against an opening. more spring pressure less flow and visa-versa. by turing it in you decrease the flow and tighten up the wheel. Be careful, if you go too far the wheel willnot return to center and you will have to steer the car back and forth. i did mine saturday and it help alot so i think i am going to replace the fluid and set it up again. i think the fluid may be part of it as well but just my $.02.
I have a similiar vibration between 65-75 then goes away, but only with my 17" wheels with 235 on them if i go to my winter tires 15" 205 it goes away. adjusting the rack improved the situation a little but not completely. i am getting rid of the 17" for something smaller anyway. I have another set of rotors and pads brand new in the garage but not getting pulsating so i am skeptical of this being the problem but i am up for anything. Just a thought but have you chacked the upper bearing in the strut tower mount. you cars front suspension rides in this small bearing which rotates with the wheels and get loaded when you turn maybe there is a little play in that assembly as well that rocks the towers backa nd forth at certain speeds. i have not tried it but maybe a possibility
also you mention that after hegh speed runs you have braking issues, might want to consider rebuilding you calipers. you might be draggin (the sound and quick stop when rotating in the air is a good indicator) that would cause the pads and rotor to heat up and warp. could even be the guide pins, just a thought.
good luck if i ever get rid of my steering shake i will let you know. I have also replace the LCAB, ball joints, tie rods, RTAB, rotors, pads, and i have aftermarket springs and shocks. Im suprised the ball joints didn't do it that would have been my guess as well. FACT #5: The vibration/shaking itself is not noticable until about 50-60mph. At this point the front end of the car vibrates slightly, and the steering wheel shakes. The problem does not get any worse with more speed, but seems to be about the same at 60, 80, or 100+ mph. It is most noticable on smooth roads when traveling in a straight line. Turning and banking seems to mask the problem or at least doesn't make it any worse. Braking doesn't have any effect--the vibration/shaking stays the same. It could be my imagination, but the steering shake actually seems WORSE during/immediately after hard acceleration.
i have a similar issue only mine does this when I turn interstate corners at 60+. I have not had any issues while driving straight. Does anyone know what my issue is? I thought mine was bad ball joints but now i am not sure. Thanks in advance. patrokloss
you mentioned earlier you replaced the tranny mounts with uuc. did you get the aluminum vups as well? if so take them out that will help with the car vibration. also read the manual about torques on the mnounting bolts for the tranny bushings if you go over the 7-9 ft*lbs, you will get a vibration. i know it happened to me as well i removed the cups and set the torques correctly it helped. also when you reinstall use tock-tite to keep the nuts from, falling off at that low of torque.
your steering rack has some adjustment to it where you can tighten up the steering feel. what i mean is it will feel tighter to turn left to right. there is a 17 mm nut to the right of where the steering shaft comes throught he rack (looking at it from the front) that can be tightened to stiffen up the suspension. from what i can see after having mine apart this weekend it looks like a spring loaded needle valve that controls flow by pressing against an opening. more spring pressure less flow and visa-versa. by turing it in you decrease the flow and tighten up the wheel. Be careful, if you go too far the wheel willnot return to center and you will have to steer the car back and forth. i did mine saturday and it help alot so i think i am going to replace the fluid and set it up again. i think the fluid may be part of it as well but just my $.02.
I have a similiar vibration between 65-75 then goes away, but only with my 17" wheels with 235 on them if i go to my winter tires 15" 205 it goes away. adjusting the rack improved the situation a little but not completely. i am getting rid of the 17" for something smaller anyway. I have another set of rotors and pads brand new in the garage but not getting pulsating so i am skeptical of this being the problem but i am up for anything. Just a thought but have you chacked the upper bearing in the strut tower mount. you cars front suspension rides in this small bearing which rotates with the wheels and get loaded when you turn maybe there is a little play in that assembly as well that rocks the towers backa nd forth at certain speeds. i have not tried it but maybe a possibility
also you mention that after hegh speed runs you have braking issues, might want to consider rebuilding you calipers. you might be draggin (the sound and quick stop when rotating in the air is a good indicator) that would cause the pads and rotor to heat up and warp. could even be the guide pins, just a thought.
good luck if i ever get rid of my steering shake i will let you know. I have also replace the LCAB, ball joints, tie rods, RTAB, rotors, pads, and i have aftermarket springs and shocks.
Thanks for the info. I have already eliminated the tranny mounts from my list of suspects--there is no detectable difference in vibration between the properly torqued UUC mounts w/enforcer cups and the stock mounts on my car. I do have reason to suspect my driveshaft may be bad but I'm not willing to drop $600 for a new one without being certain. So I'm waiting for a used one to pop up somewhere on the forums.
I didn't know the rack could be adjusted. Thanks for that, I'll give it a try.
Calipers probably do need to be rebuilt. Going to see if the driveshaft swap makes any difference and then I'll start checking some of these other issues. You are right; transmission mounts will not cause that problem. I'm not a mechanic however, I know physics and the laws of physics are telling me, that whatever is your problem it has to do with something loose or small unequal friction problem. The reason the vibrations come at high speed, is because you have a very small amount of play or unequal friction. It is noticeable due to gyroscopic reasons. Moving to one side and the gyroscopic force trying to pull it back to the other side. For every amount of force exerted it will be an equal or opposite amount of force apply by thus creating the vibration at high speeds. A moving vertical force cannot generate this movement, otherwise it would be always be present at all speeds. Im assuming that you wheels offset are within the range of your tires with, as tires with are change also your offset. Too much of a negative offset can alter you ride and may damage the wheel bearings. Im also assuming your break pads; Break Disks, Calipers, rotors and Break Anti-Rattle Spring are all good. In some instances a warp break disk, calipers and rotors can slightly rub on the pads, and due to the high speed (cruise speeds) it will create the gyroscopic effect (vibration). Bushings can also allow a small amount of play if there are old and become brittle or hard by thus not absorbing vibrations. Check the mounts of your struts for proper torques and corrosion; if bolts are loose the slightly small pivotal movement may cause vibrations. My view on this; you should always go with the most simple and inexpensive route first. The hard stuff is easy to find, but it is the easy ones that will bite you in the ass. :banghead: Well, after getting new Toyo T1R tires mounted and balanced, proper air pressure in the tires, new tie rods, control arms, control arm bushings, RTABs, RSMs, GC coilovers, new rotors, pads....I STILL have the shimmy. My next step is to find the balancer that Paul E swears by and give it a try. After that, wheel bearing hubs...one day, I will be victorious! I have recently purchaced a 1995 525i and am going through all the teathing pains of a 120000 mile car and this was also perplexing me. I had the tires balanced and to no avail. then I was thinking it was a drive shaft issue. I thought the ball joints were fine but the more I read the more I think this is the problem. thanks Ive been following this thread since I became a member of the "shimmy club".. Mine started when I put bigger wheels on my E36.. I have had the symptoms that ASSAF described for a long time.. (car seeming to wander all over the road, constantly adjusting wheel especially after lane changes) Way before I got my wheels I had this but with the new bigger wheels its just literally out of control sometimes.. I've also developed this metal grinding sound when accelerating into right hand turns.. I cant figure out this steering wheel shimmy but I have a feeling that the cause is gonna be something in the rear of the car.. All you guys have literally changed your entire front ends.. Especially PATROKLOSS.. I really have minimal suspension experience but it seems to be the next thing to look really closely at. What are the primary suspension/bushing components on the rear of an E36? It isn't the rear. The reason is, anything that could cause a steering wheel vibration has to do with components in the front. The rear will cause a vibration feeling in the seat...for example, I had imbalanced rears and I was missing a rear wheel spacer...result, my butt could feel the vibration. The bottom line is that our cars are particularly sensitive to variable changes and it shows through the vibration. I've replaced everything, now the only thing to do is keep going. Maybe one of us can pioneer our ways to locating the ONE thing that mostly adds to the vibration.
The easiest thing to do is to rebalance the wheels. From there, someone can say replace this and there you go...that is where we, as a group, will get to one day! It isn't the rear. The reason is, anything that could cause a steering wheel vibration has to do with components in the front. The rear will cause a vibration feeling in the seat...for example, I had imbalanced rears and I was missing a rear wheel spacer...result, my butt could feel the vibration. The bottom line is that our cars are particularly sensitive to variable changes and it shows through the vibration. I've replaced everything, now the only thing to do is keep going. Maybe one of us can pioneer our ways to locating the ONE thing that mostly adds to the vibration.
The easiest thing to do is to rebalance the wheels. From there, someone can say replace this and there you go...that is where we, as a group, will get to one day!
I have to agree with the vibration differences 110% . You are right, my steering wheel is what shimmies and the rear would not cause that.. Have you tried hubcentric rings? I agree with a previous poster.....try the easiest items first,...then work your way to the rack if needed.
I have the dreaded shimmy too, however, I have stock rims with no gap to make up so rings aren't my answer. I'm starting with tightening everything down,...tires,...balancing,...then control arm bushings....then who knows....
Keep me posted everyone,...I'll do the same. Well.. I changed the LCABs and realigned.. Definately better but the wheel still shimmies a little.. I know some of you may dissappointed by what I found last night, but, I promised I'd post my findings.....
I spent an hour checking the tightness of the front suspension, steering and drivetrain. Everything is in perfect shape..........except......my front left wheel. When I cup the bottom of the wheel in my hands and roll it back and forth about 1/4" either way very quickly I can feel a vibration that runs throughout the suspension. I'm thinking my answer is a wheel bearing. I had my right front replaced in January as a result of an accident so I checked it out and absolutely no vibration when I rolled the wheel back and forth.
If I get this much vibration on 1/4" movements I can only imagine what is going on with full rotations.
I'm looking for a repair shop to do the work right now. I don't have the proper tools to pull off and install wheel bearings so once I have the work done I'll re-post.
It really stinks that everyone's shimmy seems to be coming from different parts,.....but I read that BMW makes these cars so accurately that a little bit of variance in any component will create a vibration that the driver can feel. We are just used to such a smooth ride and it pisses us off to feel a vibration or shake.
Best of luck all!! Im about to throw my car off a cliff ! Changing the LCABs did nothing.. Steering wheel still goes side to side on acceleration and especially hard braking.. When I'm driving it feels like the front tires have a mind of their own.. The car feels very unstable and even changing lanes makes the car feel uneasy sometimes.. Im starting to think maybe my rack is the problem.. I know some of you may dissappointed by what I found last night, but, I promised I'd post my findings.....
I spent an hour checking the tightness of the front suspension, steering and drivetrain. Everything is in perfect shape..........except......my front left wheel. When I cup the bottom of the wheel in my hands and roll it back and forth about 1/4" either way very quickly I can feel a vibration that runs throughout the suspension. I'm thinking my answer is a wheel bearing. I had my right front replaced in January as a result of an accident so I checked it out and absolutely no vibration when I rolled the wheel back and forth.
If I get this much vibration on 1/4" movements I can only imagine what is going on with full rotations.
I'm looking for a repair shop to do the work right now. I don't have the proper tools to pull off and install wheel bearings so once I have the work done I'll re-post.
It really stinks that everyone's shimmy seems to be coming from different parts,.....but I read that BMW makes these cars so accurately that a little bit of variance in any component will create a vibration that the driver can feel. We are just used to such a smooth ride and it pisses us off to feel a vibration or shake.
Best of luck all!!
Are you talking about the wheel hubs? I was thinking of replacing these next on mine. I believe the wheel bearings are connected to the control arm and if you have to replace it, you have to replace the entire control arm. So I'm assuming you mean hub. I'm going to get my wheels balanced again tomorrow with the new Hunter machine and see what happens, if not....ordering some new hubs along with some other maintenance stuff i need. although i dont have a bmw, i have a 96 maxima with the same problem. i have the same symptoms you have and im looking to either learn/help in finding a resolution. this is my list of equipment i have changed on my car:
front and rear shocks/struts, front/rear strut mounts, every single bushing you can change involving the struts. rims and tires. both lower control arms, complete with all control arm bushings and ball joints. both inner and outter tie rods, both sway bar links. front rotors, and endless balancing and alignments. every time i changed something, the shimmy got a little bit better, but is still there. it starts at about 65-70 mph for me, most noticable on straight smooth roads.
i just had sub-frame connectors installed because my car had alot of flex in it, still no change. im planning on changing my rear rotors next. i know people say that a shimmy in the rear wont cause a shake in the steering wheel, but im running out of parts to change, and i think they are slightly warped anyway. both my front calipers are newer, and a front bearing has also been changed. both my rear hubs, calipers and abs sensors are also new.
THE ONLY THINGS I HAVE NOT CHANGED in the front of the car are the front hubs and steering rack. any play in the steering rack should be noticed upon an alighment so im quite sure thats not my problem. that only leaves me with the actual hubs area's to suspect. aside from the actual hub itself, it could also be the bearings, or the races for the bearings.
throughout my journey to reslove this probem i have learned one very imprtant thing about alignments. the quality of your alighment is only as good as the person doing it, no matter what machine he uses. since i bought this car almost 2 years ago, i had a constant pull to the left. after a few alignments, i had a constant pull to the left, and a steering wheel that was cocked over to the right. everyone told me something was bent. i finally found a guy that had 35 yrs experience that got my car driving straight, with a centered wheel. it took about 5 different places, but i finally found one that actually knows what hes doing
at any rate, trust me you guys are not alone. i posted it a while back but i replaced the front bushings, and new rotors and pads... now i'm smooth as a babies ass
everythings feels much tighter Ive been following this thread since I became a member of the "shimmy club".. Mine started when I put bigger wheels on my E36.. I have had the symptoms that ASSAF described for a long time.. (car seeming to wander all over the road, constantly adjusting wheel especially after lane changes) Way before I got my wheels I had this but with the new bigger wheels its just literally out of control sometimes.. I've also developed this metal grinding sound when accelerating into right hand turns.. I cant figure out this steering wheel shimmy but I have a feeling that the cause is gonna be something in the rear of the car.. All you guys have literally changed your entire front ends.. Especially PATROKLOSS.. I really have minimal suspension experience but it seems to be the next thing to look really closely at. What are the primary suspension/bushing components on the rear of an E36?
RTABS. RTABS can do all this crap. Shaking wheel, squirming, steering wobbles. The RTABS are responsible for a lot of the car's handling characteristics, and worn out ones will make your car feel like crap. I thought rear suspension issues would cause vibration but not have any effect on steering wheel issues.. Such as the wobbling and shimmy.. I thought rear suspension issues would cause vibration but not have any effect on steering wheel issues.. Such as the wobbling and shimmy..
the steering is pretty sensitive. If your rear control arms are jiggling, or wobbling around, it will make your steering wheel wobble around. A couple people on this thread have replaced their front ends trying to fix this and have not had satisfactory results; it's time to look somewhere else.
You will have to start thinking in a more holistic sense -- do you think the car handles and steers so well merely because of the front suspension? :nono The car is a system that will start to behave erratically as its components wear, especially since the components were tested thoroughly to get the car to behave exactly as wanted. Every part in the suspension had to be optimized in some way to interact correctly with the rest of the suspension parts. Worn out RTABs cause a lot of problems. I hate to admit it ALPINE but the problems did get worse after I slapped those 19s all around.. And with the 9.5" wide wheel in the back, Im sure that does not help.. Thanks, I'll look into it. Usually, the front suspension will cause a shimmy....the rear suspension will usually cause a vibration in your seat...drive without a hub centric ring and you'll see what I mean. I know it have been years since this thread started and the last reply was input. But I'm having the same problem w/ my 325is and I have spent quite a few $$$ too and still nothing. Did anybody found the source of the problem yet? I'll upgrade my suspension, brakes and wheels/tires soon so will see if I can find it. No, but the next thing I'm going to try is my right brake caliper. I've replaced every suspension component and I brake rotors, so all I really have left is the brake caliper that I think might be sticking. Finally, the problem is gone! I swap my 325is front wheels with the 325i and drove test it, the shaking was minimum, but I noticed that my old tires(352is) were gone on the inside so I decided to buy a new set 225front/235rear/45/17. After I took it from the shop drove it 30, 40(at this speed it felt like the front wheels wanted to come off the car with the old tires), took it to the highway, put 100+ and no vibration. WAO, it feels like a new car. Bottom line for my problem ; the tires - all 4. --I'd check the tires before but tire damage wasn't visible until now.:D I had the shimmy with my stock wheels and nothing changed with aftermarket wheels. I rebuilt the right caliper because I thought it was sticking, but that didn't fix it. I'll continue to monitor this thread, but I am about to just give up... Mine shakes at 43-52. I picked up 2 tierod ends an both control arms with urethane bushings off e-bay
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 4px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px" noWrap></TD><TD>http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/s.gifforeigncarpartsonline (http://myworld.ebay.com/ebaymotors/foreigncarpartsonline/)http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/s.gif( 23086 (http://feedback.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback&userid=foreigncarpartsonline&iid=250067761189&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller&ssPageName=VIP:feedback:2:us)http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/iconShootYllw_25x25.gif) http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/s.gifhttp://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/psIcon_50x25.gif (http://pages.ebay.com/ebaymotors/services/buyandsell/powersellers.html)http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/s.gifhttp://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics//aboutme-small.gif (http://members.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=foreigncarpartsonline)http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/s.gifhttp://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/s.gif</TD></TR><TR><TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 4px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 2px; PADDING-TOP: 2px" noWrap>Feedback:</TD><TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 4px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 2px; PADDING-TOP: 2px" vAlign=top noWrap width="100%">99.9% Positive</TD></TR><TR><TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 4px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 2px; PADDING-TOP: 2px" vAlign=top noWrap>Member:</TD><TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 4px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 2px; PADDING-TOP: 2px" vAlign=top>since Feb-15-00 in United States
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD width=20>http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/myebay/bullet.gif </TD><TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 4px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 2px; PADDING-TOP: 2px" noWrap>Read feedback comments (http://feedback.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback&userid=foreigncarpartsonline&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller&ssPageName=VIP:feedback:3:us)</TD></TR><TR><TD width=20>http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/myebay/bullet.gif </TD><TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 4px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 2px; PADDING-TOP: 2px" noWrap>Ask seller a question (http://contact.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ShowCoreAskSellerQuestion&requested=foreigncarpartsonline&iid=250067761189&frm=284&redirect=0&SSPageName=PageAskSellerQuestion_VI)</TD><TD>http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/s.gif</TD></TR><TR><TD width=20>http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/myebay/bullet.gif </TD><TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 4px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 2px; PADDING-TOP: 2px" noWrap>Add to Favorite Sellers (http://my.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?AcceptSavedSeller&mode=0&preference=0&sellerid=foreigncarpartsonline&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Febaymotors%2Fws%2Fe BayISAPI.dll%3FViewItem%26item%3D250067761189&ssPageName=STRK:MEFS:ADDVI)</TD></TR><TR><TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 2px" vAlign=top width=20>http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/myebay/bullet.gif </TD><TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 4px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 2px; PADDING-TOP: 2px">View seller's other items: <NOBR>Store (http://stores.ebay.com/FCP-Groton) | List (http://search.ebay.com/ebaymotors/_W0QQsassZforeigncarpartsonlineQQhtZ-1)</NOBR></TD></TR><TR><TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 2px" vAlign=top width=20>http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/myebay/bullet.gif </TD><TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 4px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 2px; PADDING-TOP: 2px" noWrap>Visit seller's Store:
http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/iconsStores_16x16.gif (http://stores.ebay.com/FCP-Groton)FCP Groton (http://stores.ebay.com/FCP-Groton)</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE class=MsoNormalTable style="WIDTH: 6.25in" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=600 border=0><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 33.75pt"><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: rgb(224,223,227); PADDING-RIGHT: 3.75pt; BORDER-TOP: rgb(224,223,227); PADDING-LEFT: 3.75pt; BACKGROUND: rgb(18,28,94) 0% 50%; PADDING-BOTTOM: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(224,223,227); WIDTH: 92.05pt; PADDING-TOP: 3.75pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: rgb(224,223,227); HEIGHT: 33.75pt; moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial" width=123>fcpgroton
</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: rgb(224,223,227); PADDING-RIGHT: 3.75pt; BORDER-TOP: rgb(224,223,227); PADDING-LEFT: 3.75pt; BACKGROUND: rgb(255,255,204) 0% 50%; PADDING-BOTTOM: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(224,223,227); WIDTH: 357.95pt; PADDING-TOP: 3.75pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: rgb(224,223,227); HEIGHT: 33.75pt; moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial" width=477>FCP <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 /><st1:city><st1:place>Groton</st1:place></st1:city>, LLC
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<?xml:namespace prefix = o /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
http://www.fcpgroton.com/images/polykit.jpg
http://www.fcpgroton.com/images/banna.gif
New BMW E36 CONTROL ARM KIT
Everything you need for the "Ultimate Handling Machine" in one kit!
POLYURETHANE UPGRADE
AUCTION IS FOR THE FOLLOWING:
Left Lower Control Arm With Bushing and Ball Joint 31121140957
Right Lower Control Arm With Bushing and Ball Joint 31121140958
Left COMPLETE Tie Rod Assembly (inner and outer) 32111139315
Right COMPLETE Tie Rod Assembly (inner and outer) 32111139315
Polyurethane Control Arms Bushings (1 Pair for left and right)
ALL STEERING PARTS ARE MANUFACTURED IN GERMANY
POLY BUSHINGS ARE MANUFACTURED IN THE UNITED STATES
APPLICATION GUIDE
<TABLE class=product cellSpacing=3 cellPadding=2 width=769 align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>BMW </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>318i (E36) </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>1992 - 1998 </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>Front Control Arm </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#cccccc><TD vAlign=top align=left>BMW </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>318is (E36) </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>1992 - 1997 </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>Front Control Arm </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>BMW </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>318iC (E36) </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>1992 - 1998 </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>Front Control Arm </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#cccccc><TD vAlign=top align=left>BMW </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>318ti (E36) </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>1995 - 1999 </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>Front Control Arm </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>BMW </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>323is (E36) </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>1997 - 1999 </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>Front Control Arm </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#cccccc><TD vAlign=top align=left>BMW </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>323iC (E36) </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>1997 - 1999 </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>Front Control Arm </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>BMW </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>325i (E36) </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>1991 - 1995 </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>Front Control Arm </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#cccccc><TD vAlign=top align=left>BMW </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>325is (E36) </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>1991 - 1995 </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>Front Control Arm </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>BMW </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>325iC (E36) </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>1992 - 1995 </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>Front Control Arm </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#cccccc><TD vAlign=top align=left>BMW </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>328is (E36) </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>1996 - 1999 </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>Front Control Arm </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>BMW </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>328i (E36) </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>1996 - 1998 </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>Front Control Arm </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#cccccc><TD vAlign=top align=left>BMW </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>328iC (E36) </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>1996 - 1999 </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>Front Control Arm </TD><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#cccccc><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#cccccc><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
WHY POLY?
Polyurethane is unaffected by petroleum-based solvents and atmospheric contaminants. It can also be formulated in different degrees of hardness (durometer), ranging from the gloppy consistency of the children's toy known as "Green Slime" to the solid density of a bowling ball. Between these extremes lies the perfect formula for suspension-bushing material. When formulated and designed correctly, polyurethane bushings will be the last bushings you put on the vehicle.
Rubber deterioration also compounds the original vacillation of the suspension. Rubber bushings do not rotate; they simply twist to allow movement. This works to a certain degree when the rubber is new. As it starts to age, the ability to rebound back to the original shape diminishes. This translates to steering deflection. Deflection causes changes in camber, caster, and toe angles, influencing steering control.
Another shortcoming of rubber is its displacement under load. The result is vague handling. When a vehicle initiates a turn, the load placed on the suspension components is considerable. In fact, deflection of the rubber requires some of the bushings do the job of the suspension components they adjoin. Performance polyurethane bushings do not crush like rubber. They allow movement of suspension components through rotational sliding. A firm, crisp, and responsive suspension is the result.
BMW vehicles utilizing polyurethane bushings can benefit in a number of ways. Drivers will experience increased handling performance on the street. Polyurethane bushings will endure wear and tear that rubber is incapable of withstanding. Installing new urethane bushings will tighten up a BMW that has been pounded loose in the bush.
Bushings should be one of the first thing to consider when modifying the suspension of a vehicle, particularly for go-fast applications. After the addition of performance polyurethane bushings, you're better able to judge what your next modification for that particular vehicle should be.
Polyurethane, when it is properly formulated, will increase the performance level of most suspensions. In a typical A-arm-type suspension, deflection of the rubber bushings during cornering, braking, and acceleration will allow the front end to temporarily go out of alignment. As the rubber bushings wear, they begin to compact and distort, introducing play into the suspension components. This play exaggerates a number of conditions, such as unresponsive steering, vehicle lean, wheel hop, and front-end misalignment. When you add oversized tires and increased suspension travel, it soon becomes apparent that a weakness exists in the chain. Anyone with an understanding of mechanics knows it's a rare machine that doesn't need all of the parts in its makeup to run at peak efficiency. This holds true for the chassis as well.
Polyurethane works by maintaining firm control over the suspension unit it adjoins. In many instances, the rubber-bushed suspension component will only begin its function once the rubber's displacement is halted by supporting metal. When rubber bushings are distorted and smashed, they allow contaminants to occupy the areas they used to. An example would be worn strut-rod bushings holding saltwater against the vehicle frame or worn tie-rod end dustboot covers that allow sand and other small particles to contaminate the lubricant. Contamination of this kind guarantees a speedy demise to any suspension component.
With the incredible popularity polyurethane is enjoying today in the automotive market, it's important to know what you're buying. Many people think that color is the only difference in polyurethane. However, nearly anyone can make a mold from an existing rubber bushing and "splash" out a polyurethane part. The art lies in formulating the mixture so that the part's durometer corresponds to its job: control-arm bushings should be firmer than bumpstops, for example. Polyurethane can be formulated for many different characteristics, such as abrasion, elasticity, elongation, and tear strength. It is combining the durometer with the proper physical properties that makes for superior polyurethane parts.
A VIEW FROM OUR 40,000 SQUARE FOOT PARTS WAREHOUSE WHERE WE HAVE MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF INVENTORY ON OUR SHELVES READY TO BE SHIPPED OUT THE SAME DAY WTF ? Are you the one selling these ?? Who cares about all that ebay info ? Anyway, what's the most efficient way of diagnosing if Control arms are bent or damaged if there is no visible damage or scrapes ? |
