so i got the car monday, everything has been great. runs strong, feels good etc etc. i get into the car a few minutes ago. start it, its turns over, runs, but then begins to chug and dies. now it wont start at all. it tries to turn over, battery is strong but its like there is no fuel going to it.
yesterday i installed a new head unit and ran wiring for subs/amp all of which worked fine. took the car out last night...ran fine but then today this happens. a few minutes prior to getting in the car i hooked up the amp's power cable and it threw a decent sized spark. could this have damaged something? i tried messing with all the wires running along the car in case i knocked something loose while fishing wires. car still wont turn over. my Bentley manual hasnt arrived in the mail yet so im in the dark over here. i have checked all the fuses(including fuse #18 for the fuel pump)and disconnected the battery in an attempt to reset the ecm in case something was wrong there. any ideas?
Ok to be clear all was cool till the amp wire incident right?
1) Did you check all the fuses ?
2) can you hear the fuel pump going?
3) What did you tap for the amp power?
Let's start with those questions first
1. Assuming there arent any fuses other than those on the drivers side under the hood then yes they are all good.
2. Im not sure what the fuel pump should sound like.
3. Power for the amp is from the positive terminal of the battery, ground is to the negative and remote is to the head unit.
try starting it and then pull out one of the spark plugs if it's "wet", youre getting fuel and the pump isn't the problem. The fuel pump sounds like an electrical motor from the rear of the car. Before starting the car are you getting a check engine light, better yet are all the appriopriate lights lit. ie CEL,Oil pressure, battery?
After thinking about it more....
what did the amp wire arc with? Seeing how you bypassed all fueses, I hope you use an inline between the amp and battery next time. Everything should be A-OK, except the battery, unless you arced against a sensor wire or something elses ground wire. If that was the case the damage could be extensive. I figure you arc-ed between the postive lead and the body in which case, I need to ask you sure it's turning over fine?
i just tried starting it again. i have the rear seat removed and the access panel off of the fuel pump. I held my hand on the pump as i turned the key to the position that should activate the fuel pump, couldn't feel or hear anything. the CEl, oil pressure, and battery lights are all lit.
the wiring for the amp goes to a fused distribution block. it arced between the positive terminal of the battery and the power wire for the amp. what is the small wire running along the thick red line coming off the battery. Yes, it does sound like its turning over fine, sounds strong but like its not gettting any fuel
Originally posted by DrittesAuge
the wiring for the amp goes to a fused distribution block. it arced between the positive terminal of the battery and the power wire for the amp. what is the small wire running along the thick red line coming off the battery. Yes, it does sound like its turning over fine, sounds strong but like its not gettting any fuel
Humm it sounds like you have some diagnosis work to do, first place I'd look is the Fuel Pump Relay, you'll need the bentley for the location or just start wagering guess. See if it's closing when you turn the car on also see if you it the pump goes when you short it from the relay.
well my bentley isnt here yet so im gonna see if i can bum a ride and go pick up a chilton manual and hope its informative enough. i called a couple of local shops but other than "have it towed to us" they didnt have much to offer.
i picked up the Haynes manual and pulled the relays for DME and fuel pump...only to realize i dont know how to test them. i have multimeter but the theory behind relays escapes me at the moment. little help.
SImple way is look at the relay it should have the pin out diagram on it... can you take a pic of the diagram so I can label it, otherwise I'll have to find online.
pulled and tested the DME and fuel pump relays, both are clicking open and closed just fine :-( i was really hoping this was just a blown relay. where should i go next?
"See if it's closing when you turn the car on also see if you it the pump goes when you short it from the relay."
Not to sure what you mean by that. More instruction would be appreciated. Im feeling pretty stupid right about now. I could tear apart my acura and rebuild it but this bmw is another world entirely
This is a long shot...but if you washed your car anytime during the incident, your ECU may have gotten wet...
it was washed days before this happened.
It's looking like im just gonna have to get it towed to a shop and bring some K-Y
You sure you don't hear the fuel pump? Did you check the plugs for to see if it's getting fuel? Have you tried using a multi meter after the relay, to see if it's sending power back to the pump?
im almost positive the fuel pump isnt running. i even rested my hand on it while turning the key to feel for vibration. I have not pulled a plug yet though. as far as using a multimeter "after the relay" im not sure how to go about doing that. i do however have a multimeter :-)
Ok basically if you look at the relay you'll see a diagram
that looks something like this
1----| 4---0\ 0---5
2----| \ ----7
It's very bad that drawing but bear with me
1 and 2 are the input to relay, IE the DME side.
7 is the power from the battery and 4 or 5 will be the power to the pump. 4 is powered when the relay is not powered 5 is when it is powered, if that makes sense. Anyway the number coorspond to the pin outs on the bottom of the relay and go into the relay block.
Now with a multimeter find 7 hook the positive to it and the negative to a ground ie the car body, should be power if not the fuse is probably dead. If there is power up the car and hook it to 5 power means the relay is good and something between the relay and pump is fux0red, no power the relay is bad or the 1-2 circuit isn't completed. I'm leaving work now, but that should get you started I'll check back soon.
I really think you should think about replacing the fuel pump. I had a similar thing just happen to me - car started then died and wouldn't start again. It seemed to be all of a sudden - without warning. The car was running smooth and strong right before the pump died.
Have you tested to see if you are getting power (with your multimeter) to the pump when you turn the key? That would solve the relay theory.
i dont know how to test to see if the pump is getting power
i talked to an independent shop today and he said it sounds like i fried the DME which is apparently 800+ from the dealership plus they dont come encoded for the car so i would have to have that done as well and good luck finding a used one he said. what a damn nightmare
i pulled the two harnesses out of the fuel pump(one white, the other black) and tested them with the multimeter. Bother are receiving 11.30V when the key is in the "ON" position. Im assuming this means the pump is getting power. If im close enough to the pump that im using a multimeter on it i should be able to hear the thing running, right? The guy at the shop i went to said the pump wont run until it receives an "RPM signal" dunno what that means....
First, I highly doubt it is your DME - he probably has one lying around he wants to sell you. The fuel pump is notorious for going on these things at about 150K miles. How old is your car/pump? Mine lasted 11 years and 151K miles.
The fuel pump assembly has two harnesses: one is for the fuel gauge sender (your car has 2 senders - one on the left, one on the right), and the other connector is to power the pump. Since you know that you are getting power to the pump, I would test the pump as follows:
1. Remove the fuel lines from the pump, leaving only the electrical harnesses (both!) connected.
2. Install small lengths of tubing from the pump outlets (I think the bigger hose is the return line) and put them into a coffee can. Be careful! I take no responsibility for sparks igniting...It's a long shot that it would happen, but take caution.
3. Try to start the car. If the pump is good, then gas should spurt into the coffee can. If it is bad, then obviously the can will be empty/dry.
If it were me, I would just replace the fuel pump ($125 from www.performancemotorcars.com) and fuel pump relay (~$8). It is cheap enough, especially compared to the DME theory (I don't believe it). Plus, the pump is incredibly easy to replace. It took me all of 25 minutes to do while my car was stranded on the side of the road (all the while I had some guy talking to me about how he loves boating :)) All you need is a screwdriver, possibly a pair of pliers, and some new hose clamps....It's a very very good gamble...
the car has just a little over 107k miles. Believe me, i would like nothing more than for this to simply be a dead fuel pump and the fact that it died after installing the amp to be purely coincidental.
I will try testing the pump when i get out of work today.
12:00 tonight I turn 21, hopefully my hour of power will be celebratory. Either way im getting trashed :)
Thank you for all the help, i really appreciate it.
Ryan
Ahhh...congratulations! Do me a favor - don't work on this after you're trashed :D
By the way, I know about coincidences...I had removed the cell phone that was installed (hard wired) in my car one day before the pump died! I had to push some wires around, and do some disconnecting so I thouht that was the cause...but, nope...turned out to be a big frikin coincidence. I replaced the fuel pump and am back on the road again...
107k miles? yeah, that's about right i'd say...
i pulled the lines off of the fuel pump, connected some line and ran it to a container(as suggested above) and tried starting the car. No fuel was pumped into the can....
Like i said above there are 11.50V going to each of the two electrical harnesses when the car is trying to be started which im assuming 11.50v is enough to make the pump run.
So with that said everything is pointing to a dead fuel pump unless there is something i am missing?
Im gonna go find the parts to do a replacement tommorow.
Looking at performancemotoparts.com i cant tell if i need the fuel pump assembly, or just the actual fuel pump. Anything else i need?
Its my bday so i figure i should have some good luck today and this will hopefully solve my problem.
Happy Birthday, man!
If you are getting power at the pump but no flow, then I think you can rule out the DME for sure, and be confident it is the fuel pump.
Your pump depends on when your car was built, apparently...there is the older style pump (the white one which was on my car, a 1992) and the newer one (a blue pump judging by the pictures). So, choose the one according to your year. If yours requires the one for cars built up to 1/95 (the white pump), then get the whole assembly, not just the pump. It is cheaper, and you get the sender with it...By the way, original equipment on the BMW (from the dealer) is the VDO pump (white one), not the Bosch (pump only). I bought mine from the dealer because I needed it that day...and it is IDENTICAL to the white one. Dealer price wasn't too bad - $175 - if you need it immediately and don't want to wait for shipping...
Oh, the other thing, is to deifinitely get the gasket, since you will want to replace that when you do the pump....It seals the tank, and doesn't come with the new one.
So, to summarize you need:
-----------------------------------
* 1 Fuel pump assembly: either E3001-50718 or E3001-115006 depending on your year.
* 1 Gasket: You may want to go to the dealer, since I am not sure if E2050-75863 is the right one. I think it is, but not sure...
* 2 stainless steel hose clamps in case you break the original ones.
* 5 beers to celebrate 21 years....
Like I said you may want to go to the dealer for this stuff if you need it immediately...Their prices aren't bad, and you should ask if they give a BMW Car Club member discount (usually about 20%)
Has anyone done this install themselves? anything difficult about it i should know about? Found the parts for a little over $200. All i have is the Haynes manual. hoping thats good enough
Bimmerparts.com sells the fuel pump assembly for $111, just make sure you know your production date because early 95's had a different pump than later 95's. You will want the full assembly and not just the pump as the pump is not easily removed from the assembly.
There is a rubber gasket for the pump assembly that you might want to replace at the same time, and there is a plastic lock ring that holds the pump in place that you might damage when you take it off. You will probably have to go to Chapman on Mcdowell to get those two parts if you need them, although Beyer in Chandler does have a parts dept. which may keep in stock as well.
I've done the install before, it's surprisingly easy, just be ready for a flood of gasoline when you remove the fuel line from the pump:D
THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH!
I went down to Beyer Motor Works and picked up the parts ($211 dollars later...) Got home, did the install in about 20min and she fired right up. It seems to be idling a little weird but other than that all is well. So much for the fried DME theory, damn mechanics trying to rip me off. I really can't thank you guys enough for all your help. This would have been alot worse w/out having this forum.
I took a bunch of pictures of the install so i can throw together a detailed DIY page so others don't have to go through all of this.
Well now that its fixed im gonna take a cab and go get trashed for my bday. Thanks again.
Good job...glad it all worked out for you. Told you it was the pump! ;)
Looking forward to that DIY page...
-jb325
