Home-2008 Dodge Durango Hybrid
2008 Dodge Durango Hybrid
I only included the diesel-electric part to show that it can be done in vehicles much larger than the Dodge. And yes you are correct that most full hybrids are run in compact cars because the electrics motors are used to at some points to completely take over for the gas engine. The two mode system developed by DaimlerChrysler uses the electric motors to take the strain off of the gas engine and to keep it at maximum efficiency. The engine will still be used as the main source of power, but the electric motors will be there for assistance. The small gas engine/large electric motor combo used in the Prius and Civic would not be efficient in such a large vehicle like the Durango. You are right though, hybrids have been predominantly used in small vehicles for a reason. Once the technology evolves; it will grow to suit the increasing demand through a wide range of vehicles and sizes. 200)?200:this.scrollHeight); overflow: hidden;">
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I cannot understand why you people insist on muddying the waters with this constant application of presumption and pseudo scientific babble. I don't mean to be overly harsh, but if anyone reads the posts you two have been making, and lends them credibility, they will leave less informed than had they known nothing. By the way, the generally accepted convention is internal combustion ENGINE, electric MOTOR. This helps avoid the need to reiterate gas/diesel/electric every time you write/say "motor". Comments below.
Incorrect. ALL "full hybrids" maintain the capaility to use either power source or both together. The Two-Mode Hybrid is no exception (Two-Mode Hybrid).
What is this??? Where did you come up with this cherry? Did chemistry/pyhsics change when I wasn't looking, because by my last count, stoichiometric combustion is the same regardless of engine size, and the basic efficiency of electric motors is the same whether they are placed at the heart of a small or large vehicle. If you're inclined to think big = inefficient to begin with, I direct you to the Sulzer RTA96-C, the world's most efficient IC engine. It rings in at displacements as large as 1.5 MILLION cubic inches, makes over 5.5 MILLION ft*lbs, and over 50% thermal efficiency (that's pretty good, eh...uh, for reference, consumer gas and diesel engines run around 30 and 40% respectively). If you meant to say that the fuel economy gain would not be as high numerically, OK, but efficiency is a measure of percentage. There is NO evidence of any kind that supports the idea that would be any less efficient in a large vehicle. To the contrary, the Two-Mode system actually started on a grander scale in transit buses (reference the same article above), and moved down the size chart. And further, Honda? IMA is no kind of worthy bench mark. I hope you haven't also confused it as being similar in any way to Hybrid Synergy Drive, or as a "full hybrid" at all. Honda's system is a "mild hybrid", which uses an electric motor as a supplement only. The engine IS turning whenever the car is moving. Now, I will allow that the hybrids used by Honda and Toyota would not be as EFFECTIVE in a large vehicle. But that is due to transmission constraints. CVTs which offer a fair bit to the overall eficiency of THOSE systems (note that they offer the same benefits to conventional vehicles) are notoriously weak willed, and would not live through the power from the engine in a Durango, let alone tow anything. Having said that, the more conventional automatic transmission of the Two-Mode Hybrid is both part of what makes it efficient and robust. And, again contrary to your implication above, this system stands to be MORE efficient than either Honda's or Toyota's, though that comes straight from the mouth of DCX so a grain of salt is in order. Still, it is hard to argue with the near certainty that the Two-Mode Hybrid will make advances in highway fuel economy, so far unseen in the current crop...at least without a huge degredation in performance...then again, the Geo Metro did that decades ago without electric assistance.
Yes, that's right, but not because of some phantom integration issue or lack of applicability to a vehicle type. The reason Hybrids have been the way they have is market/marketing. The folks generally interested in high economy vehicles already drive diminutive cars with tepid peformance. Most see large vehicles like the Durango as an abberation. On the other hand, folks that drive XXL vehicles have traditionally been less concerned with fuel economy and rain forrests in Africa, while always searching for more power. In addition, marketers always want big numbers to advertise, and what gets better fuel economy,to start with, than a small car? That said, small cars were the springboard for hybrids due to the business case for actual saleability and the advertising weight of 60 MPG. Hybrid application to larger vehicles is an eventuality, but one based on acceptance, not technoloigical shortcoming.
Again, this is pure nonsense. The technology is equally suited to all applications from subcompacts to buses...RIGHT NOW. To assert otherwise is unfounded, and only serves to propogate the mystic qualitys surrounding Engineering and the Hybrid. ---------
I thought that claim went to the Hyundai/MAN K98MC family of low-speed 2-stroke diesels... Anywho. What you say is correct. However, if the end purpose of a vehicle is to carry people (not itself) then it is fair to say that a lighter vehicle that carries four people is intrinsically more efficient than a heavier one which accomplishes the same task. 200)?200:this.scrollHeight); overflow: hidden;">
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I thought that claim went to the Hyundai/MAN K98MC family of low-speed 2-stroke diesels... Anywho. What you say is correct. However, if the end purpose of a vehicle is to carry people (not itself) then it is fair to say that a lighter vehicle that carries four people is intrinsically more efficient than a heavier one which accomplishes the same task. Hadn't heard about the Hyundai. I found info saying it is the most powerful, and has high thermal efficiency, but I couldn't find actual efficiency numbers (the sauzer is a 3 stroke also BTW). Anyway, it appears we agree on the concept. The largest engines out there are also the most efficient. I also agree that from a pure usage standpoint, smaller veicles are intrisically lower consumers, and said as much. "If you meant to say that the fuel economy gain would not be as high numerically, OK..." But, the efficiency (we're talkin percentages again) boost coming from applying hybrid technology was not, is not, and will not be dependant on the size of the application. That said, if pure consumption is the measure, applying it to very large vehicles will realize greater effect than smaller ones. A 15% improvement in the consumption of a transit bus, F-150, or Durango will yield substantially more volumetric fuel savings than the same improvement on an already miserly ride. Since changing the driving habits of the entire nation seems a long shot (we like our trucks..even you with tah wasteful Pilot ), applying hybrid tech to large vehicles very well could be the best short term option. --------- It seems there are readers of this thread who are apparently smarter than any car developer. Kudos to you! It also seems some of you have it all figured out, and why you are not working for the automobile industry is beyond me. The original point was Dodge could not get the MDS system working the Durango at first because of the size of the vehicle. Believe it or not, that is what was told to the public. The next point was, if the electric MOTOR was so great, why isn?t it used in all vehicles, not just trains, boats and busses. No one has been able to comment on that but of course we all know the reason electric motors are not used in cars is because of the government's big conspiracy keeping the oil companies in business right? BTW the quote below; ?The small gas engine/large electric motor combo used in the Prius and Civic would not be efficient in such a large vehicle like the Durango.? ?What is this??? Where did you come up with this cherry? Did chemistry/physics change when I wasn't looking, because by my last count, stoichiometric combustion is the same regardless of engine size, and the basic efficiency of electric motors is the same whether they are placed at the heart of a small or large vehicle. ? Expeditioner, are you saying the same engine from the Prius or Civic placed in a larger vehicle will perform the same (be as efficient) in the larger vehicle? I don't think so. I would argue the engine would have to grow proportionately to accommodate the added size, weight, aerodynamics... wouldn't you agree? You can play games with the written text, but the point is clear. --------- Date:12/29/2005 2:49:18 PM I DO work in the auto industry. My entire career has been in the industry. And while I didn't work with the Durango specifically, I did work with the JGC w/MDS during its development. As a matter of fact, I was the first person on the board to confirm MDS. Check out this topic from over 2 years ago, where I had just driven a JGC with the MDS Hemi (http://www.caranddriver.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=41151%26forumID=6%26catID=1%26search=1%26searchstring=). The original point was Dodge could not get the MDS system working the Durango at first because of the size of the vehicle. Believe it or not, that is what was told to the public. No, what they said was, the weight combined with the gearing meant that the engine would spend most of it's time in 8 cylinder mode. Thus it would not return the fuel economy gains. So the problem was NOT with MDS 'not working', but ineffective gearing. The next point was, if the electric MOTOR was so great, why isn?t it used in all vehicles, not just trains, boats and busses. No one has been able to comment on that but of course we all know the reason electric motors are not used in cars is because of the government's big conspiracy keeping the oil companies in business right? Sure that's been answered, you just don't seem to want to listen. A motor is a great source of power for any vehicle. Strong, smooth quiet. One problem, where does it get all that electricity from? Batteries are not up to the task yet. That has already been said, here in this thread. Gasoline and diesel have the benefit of great energy density (look it up, and maybe you'll see the problem), short refuel times, and an established infrastructure. Electrics, do not have those benefits for cars...yet. Look at whose playing games with words. I never said anything to that effect (re-read my posts if you question it). Comparing performance of the same powertrain between two different vehicles is not a measure of efficiency. If you've read my posts, I clearly noted the criteria for efficiency. In this case, that is the percentage of energy gleaned from a fuel source. I said the SYSTEM, regardless of scale remains equally efficient (likely more efficient in a larger package, if anything). So, while a larger engine and motor would be necessary to retain the capabilities of a larger vehicle, the system's efficiency would remain the same (I didn't even think to comment on the bigger engine/motor for a bigger vehicle bit...for sure that is the case...I really didn't think, until now, that you were actually trying to compare the exact same powertrain in different vehicles...note my comment about a CVT not handling the power from the engine in a Durango...I thought my position was clear at that point). The MPG returned, which seems to be what you're getting at, would differ, but that has everything to do with the application, and nothing to do with the technology, which is again what you attacked. You don't seem like a technical person (don't read that as disrespectful, it's just an observation), so I'm not sure I'm explaining it adequately. Simply, it seems like your confusing fuel ECONOMY (sort of the efficiency of a whole vehicle) with the EFFICIENCY of a powertrain. The technology IS sound, and you WILL see it progress into large vehicles. The only thing that has held it back from the big guys is market perception. You gotta start selling to those who WANT to buy. After a little publicity, more folks come around to the concept, and THEN you can start marketing to different demographics. I think the only thing holding it back right now is itself. Not everyone wants, or can drive a small car. Start putting your motor in nice, full size vehicle like the Lexus, and you will see more of them sell. Of course that can only happen after the whole battery thing is figured out. And then in 20 years we can be arguing about where all the chemical waste is going as the batteries are being thrown away! ---------
Are you talking about the lead-acid batteries that have been used for eons in vehicles, or the kind that everybody uses in their laptops, cell phones... Or, is there a chance that we start seeing ultra-capacitor packs replacing battery packs in vehicles that need/use one? --------- wiz- I don't know anything about where battery technology is going, but if society really does start using batteries in cars at a high rate of consumption without a plan of how to dispose of them, I think there is going to be big problems in the future. Maybe I am just being cynical. ---------
Are you talking about the lead-acid batteries that have been used for eons in vehicles, or the kind that everybody uses in their laptops, cell phones... Or, is there a chance that we start seeing ultra-capacitor packs replacing battery packs in vehicles that need/use one? Either have substantial environmental impacts. Further, energy consumption for processing those chemicals found in each is a point of consideration; would it be the more than processing IC powerplants for the equivalent number of non-hybrid vehicles? Who knows. |
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